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	<title>Comments on: St Pete and the RRFB</title>
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	<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/</link>
	<description>Encouragement, Education &#38; Advocacy for Bicycling in the Real World</description>
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		<title>By: John S. Allen</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-10996</link>
		<dc:creator>John S. Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 14:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-10996</guid>
		<description>I traveled 12 miles each way on the Pinellas Rail Trail between Seminole and St.Petersburg, (except for the downtown St. Petersburg segment where it becomes a two-way sidepath) on January 18, 2011 and encountered a couple of the RRFBs where the path crosses major streets.

The ones I saw are slightly different from the RRFBs shown in the video at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYjlD14qIU

as there are also beacons facing the path users waiting at the ends of the crosswalk.

Unlike ordinary traffic signals or the HAWK beacon, the RRFBs if used alone, as at these crossings, do not offer anything equivalent to a yellow-to-red sequence for the traffic in the cross street, and also there is no traffic signal or ped head for the path. The beacons facing voth the road and the path turn on immediately when a path user pushes a button. The beacons don&#039;t give an indication of when the motor traffic actually is expected to have stopped, as a red traffic signal or ped head does. I found this confusing and I think that other path users and some motorists also did, due to the lack of a transition interval.

There is a recorded voice message in the box with the pushbutton indicating to wait until the cross traffic stops, but it is only audible from nearby. 

I shot a short video clip at one of the crossings. The clip begins shortly after I pressed the button to turn on the beacon, as a pedestrian finishes running across the street. Then a couple of motor vehicles fail to yield and another stops halfway across the crosswalk. My video is online at 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKL0PYNBrA

The intersection is this one, at 22nd Avenue North (Google Maps satellite view). I was standing at the north side of the intersection (toward the top of the picture).

http://tinyurl.com/6dpqf4f 

Of course, this is only one example, and it may be that my standing and not entering the crosswalk influenced the behavior of the drivers in the nearer lane, but I don&#039;t think that it could have influenced those in the other lane. There was alreayd a pedestrian in the crosswalks, and a cyclist was approaching and waiting to cross. 

I think that the application of RRFBs at path crossings is very different from the use of flashing beacons at intersections where motorists also have a traffic light and the purpose of the RRFB is to alert them to the need to yield to parallel bicycle traffic when turning. I am curious as to which application was the one studied in the recent research which reported a high rate of compliance.

The excess delay mentioned in other comments on this post is a control problem. Traffic signals create excess delay because controllers are so primitive that they cannot determine that nobody is crossing any more. Neither, often, do they detect bicyclists approaching intersections. These problems can and should be addressed through improved technology - in particular, video and ultrasonic detection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I traveled 12 miles each way on the Pinellas Rail Trail between Seminole and St.Petersburg, (except for the downtown St. Petersburg segment where it becomes a two-way sidepath) on January 18, 2011 and encountered a couple of the RRFBs where the path crosses major streets.</p>
<p>The ones I saw are slightly different from the RRFBs shown in the video at</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYjlD14qIU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYjlD14qIU</a></p>
<p>as there are also beacons facing the path users waiting at the ends of the crosswalk.</p>
<p>Unlike ordinary traffic signals or the HAWK beacon, the RRFBs if used alone, as at these crossings, do not offer anything equivalent to a yellow-to-red sequence for the traffic in the cross street, and also there is no traffic signal or ped head for the path. The beacons facing voth the road and the path turn on immediately when a path user pushes a button. The beacons don&#8217;t give an indication of when the motor traffic actually is expected to have stopped, as a red traffic signal or ped head does. I found this confusing and I think that other path users and some motorists also did, due to the lack of a transition interval.</p>
<p>There is a recorded voice message in the box with the pushbutton indicating to wait until the cross traffic stops, but it is only audible from nearby. </p>
<p>I shot a short video clip at one of the crossings. The clip begins shortly after I pressed the button to turn on the beacon, as a pedestrian finishes running across the street. Then a couple of motor vehicles fail to yield and another stops halfway across the crosswalk. My video is online at </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKL0PYNBrA" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKL0PYNBrA</a></p>
<p>The intersection is this one, at 22nd Avenue North (Google Maps satellite view). I was standing at the north side of the intersection (toward the top of the picture).</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/6dpqf4f" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/6dpqf4f</a> </p>
<p>Of course, this is only one example, and it may be that my standing and not entering the crosswalk influenced the behavior of the drivers in the nearer lane, but I don&#8217;t think that it could have influenced those in the other lane. There was alreayd a pedestrian in the crosswalks, and a cyclist was approaching and waiting to cross. </p>
<p>I think that the application of RRFBs at path crossings is very different from the use of flashing beacons at intersections where motorists also have a traffic light and the purpose of the RRFB is to alert them to the need to yield to parallel bicycle traffic when turning. I am curious as to which application was the one studied in the recent research which reported a high rate of compliance.</p>
<p>The excess delay mentioned in other comments on this post is a control problem. Traffic signals create excess delay because controllers are so primitive that they cannot determine that nobody is crossing any more. Neither, often, do they detect bicyclists approaching intersections. These problems can and should be addressed through improved technology &#8211; in particular, video and ultrasonic detection.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Frederick</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-8860</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Frederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-8860</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, these marked crosswalks with or without the RRFB&#039;s are mostly on multi-lane collector or arterial roadways. We have not allowed any speed humps on these facilities for obvious reasons. Crosswalks are however required because of the Florida development practices of urban sprawl and signals set so far apart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, these marked crosswalks with or without the RRFB&#8217;s are mostly on multi-lane collector or arterial roadways. We have not allowed any speed humps on these facilities for obvious reasons. Crosswalks are however required because of the Florida development practices of urban sprawl and signals set so far apart.</p>
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		<title>By: John Rawlins</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-8859</link>
		<dc:creator>John Rawlins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-8859</guid>
		<description>Here in Europe a common fix is the positioning of large humps on the road some 10-20 yards from pedestrain crossings. This forces drivers to choose between slowing down or making expensive repairs to the underside of their vehicles. Is this simple and cheap solution not applicable in Florida?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in Europe a common fix is the positioning of large humps on the road some 10-20 yards from pedestrain crossings. This forces drivers to choose between slowing down or making expensive repairs to the underside of their vehicles. Is this simple and cheap solution not applicable in Florida?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Frederick</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6846</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Frederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6846</guid>
		<description>Eric,

Where do I start...

First, it was my pleasure to host you in St. Petersburg and I&#039;m very pleased your blog has generated such back and forth discussion.

Second, I&#039;m sorry I&#039;m so late into this discussion, just having found your blog google searching &quot;RRFB&quot; to see what&#039;s new. It wasn&#039;t that many months ago there was nothing, so YES - I think education is required.

Third - just a few thoughts....

Yes, I am from Toronto and I was shocked when I moved to Florida to see how bad mid-block motorist yielding compliance was here. I recall the &quot;Point Your Way To Safety&quot; rule and actually tried it here as an experiment. Believe it or not I did manage to receive 70% motorist yielding compliance and 3 calls to the Police Department about the idiot stopping traffic on a busy road. No mention at all that I was in a crosswalk...so I do believe that the &quot;Toys&quot; are required as part of a full Triple - E Program. That is what we did here in St. Petersburg, starting first with the Engineering. That got us over 80% compliance right out of the gate, from a base rate of 3%, as you can read in the report. That was sustained for 2-years before we even started the Enforcement component. Believe it or not, even with the funding the police were reluctant to go out. So, I brought in an FDOT program to train them and to date we have not lost one appeal in court. Yes, we started out with a lot of citations, but even today on a 3-hour operation we are averaging only 10 to 12 citations with monthly, rather that weekly operations and only at new RRFB installations.

Yes, we have seen spill over compliance at other non-RRFB crosswalk, but that compliance rate there is still low. So, we are continuing with the Engineering at high volume crossings as well as the  Enforcement and Education. After all, its taken years for the motorists to behave so poorly against the most vulnerable roadway users, we&#039;re not going to change that over night with only one of the &quot;E&#039;s&quot;. 

Hope that this gets back to your readers and helps with a bit of the background. I&#039;ll check back and answer any questions as well. Keep up the good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>Where do I start&#8230;</p>
<p>First, it was my pleasure to host you in St. Petersburg and I&#8217;m very pleased your blog has generated such back and forth discussion.</p>
<p>Second, I&#8217;m sorry I&#8217;m so late into this discussion, just having found your blog google searching &#8220;RRFB&#8221; to see what&#8217;s new. It wasn&#8217;t that many months ago there was nothing, so YES &#8211; I think education is required.</p>
<p>Third &#8211; just a few thoughts&#8230;.</p>
<p>Yes, I am from Toronto and I was shocked when I moved to Florida to see how bad mid-block motorist yielding compliance was here. I recall the &#8220;Point Your Way To Safety&#8221; rule and actually tried it here as an experiment. Believe it or not I did manage to receive 70% motorist yielding compliance and 3 calls to the Police Department about the idiot stopping traffic on a busy road. No mention at all that I was in a crosswalk&#8230;so I do believe that the &#8220;Toys&#8221; are required as part of a full Triple &#8211; E Program. That is what we did here in St. Petersburg, starting first with the Engineering. That got us over 80% compliance right out of the gate, from a base rate of 3%, as you can read in the report. That was sustained for 2-years before we even started the Enforcement component. Believe it or not, even with the funding the police were reluctant to go out. So, I brought in an FDOT program to train them and to date we have not lost one appeal in court. Yes, we started out with a lot of citations, but even today on a 3-hour operation we are averaging only 10 to 12 citations with monthly, rather that weekly operations and only at new RRFB installations.</p>
<p>Yes, we have seen spill over compliance at other non-RRFB crosswalk, but that compliance rate there is still low. So, we are continuing with the Engineering at high volume crossings as well as the  Enforcement and Education. After all, its taken years for the motorists to behave so poorly against the most vulnerable roadway users, we&#8217;re not going to change that over night with only one of the &#8220;E&#8217;s&#8221;. </p>
<p>Hope that this gets back to your readers and helps with a bit of the background. I&#8217;ll check back and answer any questions as well. Keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6292</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6292</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know what the laws are for the disabled anymore.

I do know that I saw a few pedestrian crossings with noise makers being installed in the late &#039;80&#039;s(?) or early 90&#039;s, but since then I have seen no other new ones installed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know what the laws are for the disabled anymore.</p>
<p>I do know that I saw a few pedestrian crossings with noise makers being installed in the late &#8217;80&#8242;s(?) or early 90&#8242;s, but since then I have seen no other new ones installed.</p>
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		<title>By: Grayson Peddie</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6291</link>
		<dc:creator>Grayson Peddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6291</guid>
		<description>We need something like this in S. Chickasaw Trail where I will have trouble getting over to Wal-Mart without jaywalking. When I watch for a green traffic light using my monocular, motorists who came out of Wal-Mart Neighborhood Shopping Center (or stores nearby) did not really care to stop for me and that all the motorists who got the green light turn left into S. Chickasaw Trail (southbound). Read it again: they don&#039;t care to stop for me to cross through the S. Chickasaw Trail.

Note that I mostly find pedestrian signals to be ineffective even if I wait, because if I don&#039;t have my monocular with me, I&#039;ll have a hard time for telling whether I can go or not. Looking at the pedestrian signal is also not that easy to see if I stand too close to it but I cannot stand in the crosswalk in the middle of the street. I did not have any choice but to not trust the pedestrian signals since I use my best judgment as much as I can, due to my visual impairment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need something like this in S. Chickasaw Trail where I will have trouble getting over to Wal-Mart without jaywalking. When I watch for a green traffic light using my monocular, motorists who came out of Wal-Mart Neighborhood Shopping Center (or stores nearby) did not really care to stop for me and that all the motorists who got the green light turn left into S. Chickasaw Trail (southbound). Read it again: they don&#8217;t care to stop for me to cross through the S. Chickasaw Trail.</p>
<p>Note that I mostly find pedestrian signals to be ineffective even if I wait, because if I don&#8217;t have my monocular with me, I&#8217;ll have a hard time for telling whether I can go or not. Looking at the pedestrian signal is also not that easy to see if I stand too close to it but I cannot stand in the crosswalk in the middle of the street. I did not have any choice but to not trust the pedestrian signals since I use my best judgment as much as I can, due to my visual impairment.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6283</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6283</guid>
		<description>&quot;You can’t correct embedded bad behavior in one or two sessions, it has to be done continuously over time.&quot;

And consistently, which is why I have a problem with holiday traffic law enforcement. It sends the message that it&#039;s okay to speed all the other times of the year, but not on holiday weekends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You can’t correct embedded bad behavior in one or two sessions, it has to be done continuously over time.&#8221;</p>
<p>And consistently, which is why I have a problem with holiday traffic law enforcement. It sends the message that it&#8217;s okay to speed all the other times of the year, but not on holiday weekends.</p>
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		<title>By: Keri</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6282</link>
		<dc:creator>Keri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6282</guid>
		<description>Agreed, Carlos. There is probably only a short time each day that the Bennett light is useful. You made a good point about risking a ticket. Probably no one would ticket you, but a red light crossing does make it technically illegal to cross, whereas the RRFB is an optional activation.

There have been a few times I would have liked a light at Forsyth. But overall, the refuge median makes crossing much easier.

That bush is only part of the problem westbound. There is a driveway on the other side of it. Twice I&#039;ve had motorists come out of that driveway on two wheels and blow through just as I was about to cross. Both times I had activated the light, so they ran the red. 

They do need to do something about sight-lines looking south. I think that&#039;s in the domain of the City of Orlando, but you can probably report it with Metroplan&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/modes/bicycle.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;spot improvement form&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Carlos. There is probably only a short time each day that the Bennett light is useful. You made a good point about risking a ticket. Probably no one would ticket you, but a red light crossing does make it technically illegal to cross, whereas the RRFB is an optional activation.</p>
<p>There have been a few times I would have liked a light at Forsyth. But overall, the refuge median makes crossing much easier.</p>
<p>That bush is only part of the problem westbound. There is a driveway on the other side of it. Twice I&#8217;ve had motorists come out of that driveway on two wheels and blow through just as I was about to cross. Both times I had activated the light, so they ran the red. </p>
<p>They do need to do something about sight-lines looking south. I think that&#8217;s in the domain of the City of Orlando, but you can probably report it with Metroplan&#8217;s <a href="http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/modes/bicycle.asp" rel="nofollow">spot improvement form</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Carlos</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6280</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6280</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m so glad you brought up the Bennett crosswalk. I commute on bike along Cady Way just about every day. The first couple of times I was using the signal, but then I noticed that after I crossed, the signal stayed on for way too long and I started feeling bad for making all those drivers have to wait for one person, me, to cross the street. Lately I don&#039;t use the signal anymore, but make use of the median to stop, if needed, for traffic on the other side to go through. I&#039;m probably risking a ticket, but I also don&#039;t want to inconvenience a handfull of drivers who have to stop way after I already crossed the street. Bennett doesn&#039;t get that much traffic anyway, so I generally don&#039;t have to wait long to cross. I&#039;m all for medians in the cross walk, but sometimes having a light there is not necessary. I think it works just fine for me on Forsyth and Cady Way, unless someone else has a different story at this location.

Btw, somewhat off topic. There&#039;s a huge bush or tree or weed on Bennett that  makes it hard to see oncoming traffic when crossing west bound. Can someone remove it...lol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m so glad you brought up the Bennett crosswalk. I commute on bike along Cady Way just about every day. The first couple of times I was using the signal, but then I noticed that after I crossed, the signal stayed on for way too long and I started feeling bad for making all those drivers have to wait for one person, me, to cross the street. Lately I don&#8217;t use the signal anymore, but make use of the median to stop, if needed, for traffic on the other side to go through. I&#8217;m probably risking a ticket, but I also don&#8217;t want to inconvenience a handfull of drivers who have to stop way after I already crossed the street. Bennett doesn&#8217;t get that much traffic anyway, so I generally don&#8217;t have to wait long to cross. I&#8217;m all for medians in the cross walk, but sometimes having a light there is not necessary. I think it works just fine for me on Forsyth and Cady Way, unless someone else has a different story at this location.</p>
<p>Btw, somewhat off topic. There&#8217;s a huge bush or tree or weed on Bennett that  makes it hard to see oncoming traffic when crossing west bound. Can someone remove it&#8230;lol.</p>
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		<title>By: Keri</title>
		<link>http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/02/23/st-pete-and-the-rrfb/comment-page-1/#comment-6279</link>
		<dc:creator>Keri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/?p=6845#comment-6279</guid>
		<description>The 3ft law could only be enforced with a sting and some sort of measuring equipment (laser) and video. In my experience, close passing is so rare, it would be hard to justify the cost and manpower to try enforcing it.

It would be easier to catch people using their horn illegally to harass cyclists. After &lt;a href=&quot;http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/01/20/dude-who-do-you-think-youre-honking-at/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this incident&lt;/a&gt; we knocked the idea around as a possible component of the civility initiative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 3ft law could only be enforced with a sting and some sort of measuring equipment (laser) and video. In my experience, close passing is so rare, it would be hard to justify the cost and manpower to try enforcing it.</p>
<p>It would be easier to catch people using their horn illegally to harass cyclists. After <a href="http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/01/20/dude-who-do-you-think-youre-honking-at/" rel="nofollow">this incident</a> we knocked the idea around as a possible component of the civility initiative.</p>
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